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THE SCIENCE OF SELF-REALIZATION
Śrīla Prabhupāda:  No, I establish it.
Prof. Kotovsky:  According to all scriptures—the  Purāṇas , etc.—every member of one of these four classes of  varṇas  has to be born within it.
Śrīla Prabhupāda:  No, no, no, no.
Prof. Kotovsky:  That is the foundation of all the  varṇas ...
Śrīla Prabhupāda:  No, no. I am sorry.
Prof. Kotovsky:  The foundation of all the  varṇas ...
Śrīla Prabhupāda:  You have spoken incorrectly. With great respect I beg to submit that you are not speaking correctly. In the  Bhagavad-gītā  [4.13] it is stated,  cātur-varṇyam mayā sṛṣṭam guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . “These four orders of  brāhmaṇas ,  kṣatriyas ,  vaiśyas , and  śūdras  were created by Me according to quality and work.” There is no mention of birth.
Prof. Kotovsky:  I agree with you that this is the addition of later  brāhmaṇas  who tried to perpetuate these qualities.
Śrīla Prabhupāda:  That has killed the Indian culture. Otherwise there would have been no necessity of the division of part of India into Pakistan. Not only that, but from the historical point of view this whole planet was Bhārata-varṣa, and it was controlled by one flag up to the time of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Then it gradually separated. This is history. Lately they have separated Pakistan. So Bhārata-varṣa is now crippled into a small piece of land. Otherwise, according to Vedic scripture, this whole planet is called Bhārata-varṣa. Formerly it was named Ilāvṛta-varṣa. But since Emperor Bharata ruled this planet, it is called Bhārata-varṣa. So this culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, was always existent. Consider any religion—Christian, Muhammadan, Jewish. They are at most two to three thousand years old. But you cannot trace out the beginning of this Vedic scripture. It is therefore called  sanātana , eternal. This culture is for this whole human society. It is not a religious faith. Religious faith you can change, but real  dharma  you cannot change. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa. In the  Bhagavad-gītā  [18.66] He says,  sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇam vraja : “Give up all other forms of religion and just surrender to Me.” That is real knowledge—to surrender to the Supreme. You or I—anyone—is surrendered to someone. That is a fact. Our life is by surrender, is it not? Do you disagree with this point?
Prof. Kotovsky:  To some extent you surrender.
Śrīla Prabhupāda:  Yes, to the full extent.
Prof. Kotovsky:  You have to surrender to the society, for instance. To the whole people.
Śrīla Prabhupāda:  Yes, to the whole people, or to the state or to the king