206 , THE SCIENCE OF SELF-REALIZATION
Srila Prabhupada: No, I establish it.
Prof. Kotovsky: According to all scriptures—the Purdnas, etc.—every
member of one of these four classes of varnas has to be born within it.
Srila Prabhupada: No, no, no, no.
Prof. Kotovsky: That is the foundation of all the varnas...
Srila Prabhupada: No, no. I am sorry.
Prof. Kotovsky: The foundation of all the varnas...
Srila Prabhupada: You have spoken incorrectly. With great respect I beg
to submit that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gita [4.13]
it is stated, cdtur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. ‘‘These
four orders of brdhmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and Stidras were created by
Me according to quality'and work.”’ There is no mention of birth.
Prof. Kotovsky: I agree with you that this is the addition of later
brdhmanas who tried to perpetuate these qualities.
Srila Prabhupada: That has killed the Indian culture. Otherwise there
’ would have been no necessity of the division of part of India into
Pakistan. Not only that, but from the historical point of view this whole
planet was Bharata-varsa, and it was controlled by one flag up to the time
of Maharaja Pariksit. Then it gradually separated. This is history. Lately
they have separated Pakistan. So Bharata-varsa is now crippled into a
small piece of land. Otherwise, according to Vedic scripture, this whole
planet is called Bharata-varsa. Formerly it was named Ilavrta-varsa. But
since Emperor Bharata ruled this planet, it is called Bharata-varsa. So this
culture, Krsna consciousness, was always existent. Consider any
religion—Christian, Muhammadan, Jewish. They are at most two to
three thousand years old. But you cannot trace out the beginning of this
Vedic scripture. It is therefore called sandtana, eternal. This culture is for
this whole human society. It is not a religious faith. Religious faith you
can change, but real dharma you cannot change. Try to understand
Krsna. In the Bhagavad-gitd [18.66] He says, sarva-dharman parityajya
_ mam ekam saranam vraja: ‘‘Give up all other forms of religion and just
surrender to Me.”’ That is real knowledge—to surrender to the Supreme.
You or I—anyone—is surrendered to someone. That is a fact. Our life is
by surrender, is it not? Do you disagree with this point?
Prof. Kotovsky: To some extent you surrender.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, to the full extent.
Prof. Kotovsky: You have to surrender to the society, for instance. To
the whole people.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, to the whole people, or to the state or to the king
